טאקער - פוטין אינטערוויוא

[ישי שטיינמעץ]

ס'טוט זיך הימל און ערד און טאקער ... די לינקע האבען א מעלטדאון ... אפילו די ריינאוס פלאען .... אין די לינקע אמעריקא איז שווער צו טרעפן היינט ריכטיגע זשורנאליסטן, אלעס איז פראפעגאנדע און קאפ דרייענישען.

איז געקומען טאקער און געזאגט אז ער האלט אז אמעריקאנער זענען בארעכטיגט צו הערען וואס פוטין האט צו זאגן.... די לינקע קנאים האבען אים אנגעהויבען באשמיצען. ס'געפלויגן טישן און בענק.... געוויסע זענען ממש קעגן טאקער געוויסע זענען בעד. און שוין...

למעשה האט טאקער זיך אהין געפעקעלט קיין רוסלאנד, און על אפם וחמתם פון אלע לינקע גלחים האט ער אינטערוויואוד פוטין 2 שעה.

די אינטערוויאו איז סקעדזשיולד צו ארויס קומען היינט 6 אזייגער איסטערן אויף טאקער'ס וועבסייט און אויף X.

ס'איז ערווארטעט אז צווישען 500 מיליאן און א ביליאן מענטשן וועלען עס וואטשן.

[פון אונזערע]

די פראבלעם איז אז טאקער איז מסביר אז ער טוט עס צו ווייזן אז סאיז דא פרידאם אויף ספיטש... וועמען ווילסטע איינרעדן אז דו האסט געהאט פרידאם אויף ספיטשף סיי ביים מאכן די אינטערוויא און סיי ביים עס ארויסלייגן פארן פאבליק...

[זאקן]

איך בין מודה אז אין אמעריקא (און מן הסתם אין די גאנצע וועלט) איז שווער צו טרעפן היינט ריכטיגע זשורנאליסטן, און אלעס איז פראפעגאנדע און קאפ דרייענישן, איך ווייס אבער נישט פארוואס דו האלטס אז טאקער איז בעסער, טאקער האט אויכט א פראפעגאנדע מאשין.

[ישי שטיינמעץ]

אזוי צו אזוי קומט א גוטע אינטערוויוא.
לויט א פריוויוא וואס כ'האב געהערט, זאגט פוטין אז הילערי האט געהארגעט דזעפרי עפסטין ... און פארדעם ריפט מען איר קילערי....

אויך טענה'ט פוטין אז טראמפ גייט געווינען די וואלן.

[שאלתיאל]

טאקער איז אויך א פארגעשריטענע פראפאגאנדע מאשין און קאפ דרייענישן נאר פונעם רעכטע זייט. איך בין פרא דער אינטערוויו אבער כ'ערווארט נישט איין אז דאס גייט זיין א דזשורנאליסטישע ארבעט.

איך פארשטיי נאר נישט וואס פשט פון די ראמאנטיזאציע וואס פוטין גייט אריבער ביי מאנכע אינערהאלב די רעכטע לאגער און דווקא ביי MAGA און נעשענעליסט חברה. אפשר איז דאס א טייל פון די אנטי-גלאבעליזם סענטימענט.

[פון אונזערע]

איך בין מודה אז אין אמעריקא (און מן הסתם אין די גאנצע וועלט) איז שווער צו טרעפן היינט ריכטיגע זשורנאליסטן, און אלעס איז פראפעגאנדע און קאפ דרייענישן, איך ווייס אבער נישט פארוואס דו האלטסט אז טאקער איז בעסער, טאקער האט אויכט א פראפעגאנדע מאשין.

די חילוק איז אז טאקער ארבעט פאר זיך און קען זיין אריגענעל, משא''כ אלע אנדערע וואס ארבעטן פאר די גרויסע פעיק ניוס קאמפעניס...

[זאקן]

דו פארגעסט זייער שנעל, טאקער האט ביז נישט צו לאנג צוריק געארבעט אין פאקס ניוז, ער איז נישט ארויס פון דארט ווייל ער האט געהאלטן אז ס'איז פראפעגאנדע, ער איז ארויס ווייל מ'האט אים ארויסגעווארפן פון דארט ווי א דאגי, ווען מ'ווארפט אים נישט ארויס פון פאקס ניוז וואלט ער נאך יעצט דארט געווען.

[קורקלענד]

פארוואס האט מען איהם ארויסגעווארפן? ווייל זיין שאו האט נישט געהאט קיין צוהערער? אדער ווייל ער האט עפעס געטוהן נישט אויסגעהאלטן? אדרבה, מיר ווילן פארשטיין טאקע פארוואס ער איז געפלויגן ווי א דאָגי?

[סוף טוב הכל טוב]

פארוואס איז פרא-פוטין = רעכט, איך האב אלץ געמיינט אז די רעכטע האבן מער פיינט די קאמוניסטן און סאוויעטן ווי די לינקע?

[אלע צוזאמען]

איך פארשטיי נאר נישט וואס פשט פון די ראמאנטיזאציע וואס פוטין גייט אריבער ביי מאנכע אינערהאלב די רעכטע לאגער און דווקא ביי MAGA און נעשענעליסט חברה. אפשר איז דאס א טייל פון די אנטי-גלאבעליזם סענטימענט.

ווייל ער איז געווארן שונא נומער איינס ביי די לינקע און זייער עליטע חברים -נאך פאר די אוקריינע מלחמה- אן קיין שום נארמאלע סיבה, די ריספאנס צו דעם איז כמעט ווי נאטורליך, אים צו פארוואנדלן אלס אן העלד.

[berlbalaguleh]

פארוואס האט מען איהם ארויסגעווארפן? ווייל זיין שאו האט נישט געהאט קיין צוהערער? אדער ווייל ער האט עפעס געטוהן נישט אויסגעהאלטן? אדרבה, מיר ווילן פארשטיין טאקע פארוואס ער איז געפלויגן ווי א דאָגי?

ווייל די בעה"ב פון פאקס ניוז האבן געהאט אויף זיך, אדער געסעטלט א לאו סוט פון עטליכע הונדערט מיליאן דאללער, און זיי האבן מחליט געווען צו ווערן מער פאליטקלי קארעקט, פי' מער ליבעראל. און ער (טאקער) האט זיך נישט אריינגעפאסט אין זייער נייע אגענדא...!

[וואלווי]

אינדיפענדענט דזשורנאליזם? ס'ענדלט צו טיים מעגעזין פלעגט לייגן היטלער אויפן דעקל אין די דרייסיגער יארן.

[שאלתיאל]

טאקער האט ארויסגעלייגט די אינטערוויו אויף טוויטער 4 מינוט צוריק און די טוויט האלט שוין ביי 350 טויזענט וויוס

https://x.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1755 ... 25682?s=20

[מן הסתם]

האלט שוין ביי 23.9 מיליאן.

[אבימלך]

איינער מיט די תוכן הסברים?

[שפילער]

פארוואס איז פרא-פוטין = רעכט, איך האב אלץ געמיינט אז די רעכטע האבן מער פיינט די קאמוניסטן און סאוויעטן ווי די לינקע?

זייער אינטערסאנט אבער די פאליסיס פון די צוויי פארטייען סוויטשען יעדע פאר יאר!

[ברוך שפינוזה]

ביזדערווייל האב איך אויסגעהערט די ערשטע 20 מינוט, כ'האב אויפגעפאסט אז דער פוטינ'ס טראלעריי ענדלט שטארק אין די חסידישע טראלעריי. געווענליך ווען מערב וועלט פאליטיקאנטן צו סתם מענטשן טראללן ארום איז עס אלץ מיט א האלבע ערנסטקייט ווייל אפילו דער טראלל ערווארט נישט אז דו גייסט עס אינגאנצן אפקויפן נאר ער דארף טוהן זיין חלק ולה' הישועה, וולאדימיר אבער טראללט דאך אבער ארום מיט אזא ערנסטקייט איבער די גלאררייכע צייטן פון סטאלין און ווי מ'לערנט ארויס אזוי גרונטליך פון היסטאריע אז אוקראינע האט ממש נישט קיין זכות קיום כאילו ער אליין גלייבט דערין, פון מיין עקספיריענס מיט די חסידישע טראלעריי מיינט ער עס טאקע ערנסט.

[לאכעדיג]

איך האב הנאה געהאט ווען טאקער פרעגט פוטין וואס ביידען זאגט צו די מלחמה אין אוקראינע, ענטפערט אים פוטין ציניש "פרעג אים".

[בר גיורא]

פוטין זוכט נישט אים צו פיליבאסטערען. ער פרובירט צי מסביר זיין פאר די אמעריקאנע אראגאנטישע מוח אז סאיז דא מענטשן וואס האבן אן אנדערע פערספעקטיוו ווי זיי, און פון וואו עס קומט. ווי אויך פרובירט ער צו לייגן גראונד פאר א טראמפ געווינס און פארהאנדלונגען איבער אוקריינע (וויסענדיג אז פאר ביידען איז אומעגליך יעצט צוריקצוואקען פון די מלחמה).

איך הער דא א נייע טאן vs די לעצטע 2 יאר, סאך רואיגער און אפען פאר דיסקוסיעס (אפילו אויב ער טענה'עט אז ער איז אייביג געווען גרייט דערפאר).

די בעסטע ליין פון די אינטערוויא איז, ווען טאקער פרעגט אים צי ער האט נישט מורא פון א כינעזע וועלט מאכט אנשטאטס אן אמעריקאנע?
ענפערט פוטין, The Chinese foreign policy isn't all about aggression...
אין אלגעמיין איז אמעריקעס go to מיטל צי לעזן א קאנפליקט איז וואפען/מלחמה. אין אזיע איז עס דיאלאג און פשרה.
די פאקט אז די U.S. ארמיי פארט אריבער די דרום טשיינע ים כמעט טעגליך "צו מאכן א פוינט" שרייט פאר זיך!

[Antibacterial]

האלט שוין ביי 23.9 מיליאן

108.5 million! אויף x
איז דא א וועג צו זעהן אויף זיין אייגענע וועבסייט וויפיל האבן שוין געזעהן?

מען רעדט לכאורה פון 250 million views פון ביידע צוזאמען אין פופצן שעה!

[שמעקעדיג]

ביזדערווייל האב איך אויסגעהערט די ערשטע 20 מינוט, כ'האב אויפגעפאסט אז דער פוטינ'ס טראלעריי ענדלט שטארק אין די חסידישע טראלעריי. געווענליך ווען מערב וועלט פאליטיקאנטן צו סתם מענטשן טראללן ארום איז עס אלץ מיט א האלבע ערנסטקייט ווייל אפילו דער טראלל ערווארט נישט אז דו גייסט עס אינגאנצן אפקויפן נאר ער דארף טוהן זיין חלק ולה' הישועה, וולאדימיר אבער טראללט דאך אבער ארום מיט אזא ערנסטקייט איבער די גלאררייכע צייטן פון סטאלין און ווי מ'לערנט ארויס אזוי גרונטליך פון היסטאריע אז אוקראינע האט ממש נישט קיין זכות קיום כאילו ער אליין גלייבט דערין, פון מיין עקספיריענס מיט די חסידישע טראלעריי מיינט ער עס טאקע ערנסט.

אנבעליוועבל ווי דו פארפעלסט נישט קיין געלעגנהייט צו שימפן אקעגן די חסידים... דיין pain איז נעבעך זייער שטארק.

[ברוך שפינוזה]

נאך אזעלכע שטעכעדיגע קאממענטארן אוודאי איז מיין pain "נעבעך" שטארק, וואס דען האסטו ערווארטעט?

[נאך א מיינונג]

בין איך דער איינציגסטע וואס האט באמערקט ווי ער ברענגט זיין הויפט היסטארישע ראיות פון כמעלינצקי און היטלר? די וועלט שטורמעט אביסל וועגן היטלר, אבער פון כמילעניצקי האט קיינער נישט געהערט, אחוץ אפאר אידעלעך וואס זאגן נאך סליחות כ' סיון.

דא קען מען ליינן א טרענסקריפט

Full Text Transcript of Tucker Carlson Putin Interview

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has given his first one-on-one interview to Western media since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine began two years ago – to US talk show host Tucker Carlson.
Below is the full text transcript in English of the interview translated from the original conversation in Russian.
Note: This transcript presents what Putin said and as he said - it may contain a selective view of history and information to justify the ongoing war in Ukraine.
Tucker Carlson:Mr. President, thank you.
On February 24, 2022, you addressed your country in your nationwide address when the conflict in Ukraine started and you said that you were acting because you had come to the conclusion that the United States through NATO might initiate a quote, “surprise attack on our country”. And to American ears that sounds paranoid. Tell us why you believe the United States might strike Russia out of the blue. How did you conclude that?
Vladimir Putin:The point is not that the United States was going to launch a surprise strike on Russia, I didn't say so. Are we having a talk show or serious conversation?
Tucker Carlson:That was a good quote. Thank you, it’s formidably, serious!
Vladimir Putin: Your education background is in history, as far as I understand, right?
Tucker Carlson: Yes.
Vladimir Putin: Then I will allow myself – just 30 seconds or one minute – to give a little historical background, if you don't mind.
Tucker Carlson: Please.
Vladimir Putin: Look how did our relations with Ukraine begin, where does Ukraine come from.
The Russian state became a centralized one, this is considered the year of the creation of the Russian state in the year of 862, when the Novgorodians - there is a city of Novgorod in the north-west of the country - invited Prince Rurik from Scandinavia, from the Varangians, to reign. In 1862, Russia celebrated the 1000th anniversary of its statehood, and in Novgorod there is a monument dedicated to the 1000th anniversary of the country.
In 882, Rurik’s successor, Prince Oleg, who essentially served as a regent for Rurik’s young son, and Rurik had died by this time, came to Kyiv. He removed from power two brothers who, apparently, were once members of Rurik’s squad, and thus Russia began to develop, having two centers: in Kyiv and Novgorod.
The next, very significant date in the history of Russia is 988. This is the Baptism of Rus', when Prince Vladimir, the great-grandson of Rurik, baptized Rus' and accepted Orthodoxy - Eastern Christianity. From that time on, the centralized Russian state began to strengthen. Why? A single territory, single economic ties, one language, and after the baptism of Rus' - one faith and the power of the prince. A centralized Russian state began to take shape.
Back in the Middle Ages, Prince Yaroslav the Wise introduced the order of succession to the throne, but after he passed away, it became complicated for various reasons. The throne was passed not directly from father to eldest son, but from the prince who had passed away to his brother, then to his sons in different lines. All this led to the fragmentation and the end of Rus as a single state. There was nothing special about it, the same was happening then in Europe. But the fragmented Russian state became an easy prey to the empire created earlier by Genghis Khan. His successors, namely, Batu Khan, came to Rus, plundered and ruined nearly all the cities. The southern part, including Kiev, by the way, and some other cities, simply lost independence, while northern cities preserved some of their sovereignty. They had to pay tribute to the Horde, but they managed to preserve some part of their sovereignty. And then a unified Russian state began to take shape with its centre in Moscow.
The southern part of the Russian lands, including Kyiv, began to gradually gravitate towards another “magnet” - towards the center that was taking shape in Europe. This was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It was even called Lithuanian-Russian, because Russians made up a significant part of this state. They spoke Old Russian and were Orthodox. But then a unification occurred - the union of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland. A few years later, another union was signed in the spiritual sphere, and some Orthodox priests submitted to the authority of the Pope. Thus, these lands became part of the Polish-Lithuanian state.
But for decades, the Poles have been engaged in the Polonization of this part of the population: they introduced their language there, they began to introduce the idea that these are not entirely Russians, that since they live on the edge, they are Ukrainians. Initially, the word “Ukrainian” meant that a person lives on the outskirts of the state, “at the edge,” or is engaged in border service, in fact. It did not mean any particular ethnic group.
So the Poles did everything they could to polish and, in principle, treated this part of the Russian lands quite harshly, if not cruelly. All this led to the fact that this part of the Russian lands began to fight for their rights. And they wrote letters to Warsaw, demanding that their rights be respected, so that people would be sent here, including to Kyiv...
Tucker Carlson: I beg your pardon, can you tell us what period… I am losing track of where in history we are?
Vladimir Putin: It was in the 13th century.
Now I will tell what happened later and give the dates so that there is no confusion. And in 1654, even a bit earlier, the people who were in control of the authority over that part of the Russian lands, addressed Warsaw, I repeat, demanding their rights be observed that they send to them rulers of Russian origin and Orthodox faith. When Warsaw did not answer them and in fact rejected their demands, they turned to Moscow so that Moscow took them away.
So that you don't think that I am inventing things… I'll give you these documents…
Tucker Carlson: It doesn’t sound like you are inventing it, but I am not sure why it’s relevant to what’s happened two years ago.
Vladimir Putin: But still, these are documents from the archives, copies. Here are letters from Bogdan Khmelnitsky, the man who then controlled the power in this part of the Russian lands that is now called Ukraine. He wrote to Warsaw demanding that their rights be upheld, and after being refused, he began to write letters to Moscow asking to take them under the strong hand of the Moscow Tsar. There are copies of these documents. I will leave them for your good memory. There is a translation into Russian, you can translate it into English later.
Russia would not agree to admit them straight away, assuming this would trigger a war with Poland. Nevertheless, in 1654, the Zemsky Sobor, which was a representative body of power of the Old Russian state, made the decision: those Old Russian lands became part of the Tsardom of Muscovy.
As expected, the war with Poland began. It lasted 13 years, and then a truce was concluded. In all, after that act of 1654, 32 years later, I think, a peace treaty with Poland was concluded, “the eternal peace,” as it said. And those lands, the whole left bank of the Dnieper, including Kiev, reverted to Russia, while the entire right bank of the Dnieper remained in possession of Poland.
Under the rule of Catherine the Great, Russia reclaimed all of its historical lands, including in the south and west. This all lasted until the Revolution. Before World War I, Austrian General Staff relied on the ideas of Ukrainianization and started actively promoting the ideas of Ukraine and the Ukrainianization. Their motive was obvious. Just before World War I they wanted to weaken the potential enemy and secure themselves favourable conditions in the border area. So the idea which had emerged in Poland that people residing in that territory were allegedly not really Russians, but rather belonged to a special ethnic group, Ukrainians, started being propagated by the Austrian General Staff.
As far back as the 19th century, theorists calling for Ukrainian independence appeared. All those, however, claimed that Ukraine should have a very good relationship with Russia. They insisted on that. After the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks sought to restore the statehood, and the Civil War began, including the hostilities with Poland. In 1921, peace with Poland was proclaimed, and under that treaty, the right bank of the Dnieper River once again was given back to Poland.
In 1939, after Poland cooperated with Hitler — it did collaborate with Hitler, you know —Hitler offered Poland peace and a treaty of friendship and alliance - we have all the relevant documents in the archives, demanding in return that Poland give back to Germany the so-called Danzig Corridor, which connected the bulk of Germany with East Prussia and Konigsberg. After World War I this territory was transferred to Poland, and instead of Danzig, a city of Gdansk emerged. Hitler asked them to give it amicably, but they refused. Still they collaborated with Hitler and engaged together in the partitioning of Czechoslovakia.
Tucker Carlson: May I ask… You are making the case that Ukraine, certain parts of Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, in fact, has been Russia for hundreds of years, why wouldn’t you just take it when you became President 24 years ago? Your have nuclear weapons, they don’t. It’s actually your land. Why did you wait so long?
Vladimir Putin: I’ll tell you. I’m coming to that. This briefing is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains many things.
Tucker Carlson: It’s not boring.
Vladimir Putin: Good. Good. I am so gratified that you appreciate that. Thank you.
So before World War II, Poland collaborated with Hitler and although it did not yield to Hitler’s demands, it still participated in the partitioning of Czechoslovakia together with Hitler. As the Poles had not given the Danzig Corridor to Germany, and went too far, pushing Hitler to start World War II by attacking them. Why was it Poland against whom the war started on 1 September 1939? Poland turned out to be uncompromising, and Hitler had nothing to do but start implementing his plans with Poland.
By the way, the USSR — I have read some archive documents — behaved very honestly. It asked Poland’s permission to transit its troops through the Polish territory to help Czechoslovakia. But the then Polish foreign minister said that if the Soviet planes flew over Poland, they would be downed over the territory of Poland. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is that the war began, and Poland fell prey to the policies it had pursued against Czechoslovakia, as under the well-known Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, part of that territory, including western Ukraine, was to be given to Russia. Thus Russia, which was then named the USSR, regained its historical lands.
After the victory in, what we call the Great Patriotic War - World War II, all those territories were ultimately enshrined as belonging to Russia, to the USSR. As for Poland, it received, apparently in compensation, western, originally German, territories - the eastern part of Germany, part of the lands, these are the western regions of Poland today. Of course, Poland regained access to the Baltic sea, and Danzig, which was once again given its Polish name. So this was how this situation developed.
In 1922, when the USSR was being established, the Bolsheviks started building the USSR and established the Soviet Ukraine, which had never existed before.
Tucker Carlson: Right.
Vladimir Putin: Stalin insisted that those republics be included in the USSR as autonomous entities. For some inexplicable reason, Lenin, the founder of the Soviet state, insisted that they be entitled to withdraw from the USSR. And, again for some unknown reasons, he transferred to that newly established Soviet Republic of Ukraine some of the lands together with people living there, even though those lands had never been called Ukraine; and yet they were made part of that Soviet Republic of Ukraine. Those lands included the Black Sea region, which was received under Catherine the Great and which had no historical connection with Ukraine whatsoever.
Even if we go as far back as 1654, when these lands returned to the Russian Empire, that territory was the size of three to four regions of modern Ukraine, with no Black Sea region. That was completely out of the question.
Tucker Carlson: In 1654?
Vladimir Putin: Exactly.
Tucker Carlson: You have, I see, encyclopedic knowledge of this region. But why didn’t you make this case for the first 22 years as president, that Ukraine wasn’t a real country?
Vladimir Putin: The Soviet Ukraine was given a great deal of territory that had never belonged to it, including the Black Sea region. At some point, when Russia received them as an outcome of the Russo-Turkish wars, they were called “New Russia” or Novorossiya. But that does not matter. What matters is that Lenin, the founder of the Soviet State, established Ukraine that way. For decades, the Ukrainian Soviet Republic developed as part of the USSR, and for unknown reasons again, the Bolsheviks were engaged in Ukrainianization. It was not merely because the Soviet leadership was composed to a great extent of those originating from Ukraine. Rather, it was explained by the general policy of indigenization pursued by the Soviet Union. Same things were done in other Soviet republics. This involved promoting national languages and national cultures, which is not bad in principle. That is how the Soviet Ukraine was created.
After World War II, Ukraine received, in addition to the lands that had belonged to Poland before the war, part of the lands that had previously belonged to Hungary and Romania , - today Western Ukraine. So Romania and Hungary had some of their lands taken away and given to the Ukraine and they still remain part of Ukraine. So in this sense, we have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin’s will.
Tucker Carlson: Do you believe Hungary has a right to take back its land from Ukraine? And that other nations have a right to go back to their 1654 borders?
Vladimir Putin: I am not sure whether they should go back to the 1654 borders, but given Stalin’s time, so-called Stalin’s regime — which as many claim saw numerous violations of human rights and violations of the rights of other states – one may say that they could claim back those lands of theirs, while having no right to do that, it is at least understandable…
Tucker Carlson: Have you told Viktor Orbán that he can have a part of Ukraine?
Vladimir Putin: I never said so. Never, not once. He and I didn’t even have any conversations about this. But I know for sure that the Hungarians who live there, of course, want to return to their historical homeland.
Moreover, I would like to share a very interesting story with you, I'll digress, it's a personal one. Somewhere in the early 80's, I went on a road trip on a car from then-Leningrad - now St. Petersburg, across the Soviet Union through Kiev, made a stop in Kiev, and then went to Western Ukraine. I went to the town of Beregovoye, and all the names of towns and villages there were in Russian and in a language I didn't understand – in Hungarian . In Russian and in Hungarian. Not in Ukrainian – in Russian and in Hungarian.
I was driving through some kind of a village and there were men sitting next to the houses and they were wearing black three-piece suits and black cylinder hats. I asked, ”Are they some kind of entertainers?“ I was told, ”No, they're not entertainers. They're Hungarians. ‘I said, ‘What are they doing here?’ — ‘What do you mean? This is their land, they live here.’ This was during the Soviet time, in the 1980’s. They preserve the Hungarian language, Hungarian names, and all their national costumes. They are Hungarians and they feel themselves to be Hungarians. And of course, when now there is an infringement….
Tucker Carlson: And there’s a lot of that though, I think. Many nations feel upset about — there are Transylvanians as well as you, others, you know — but many nations feel frustrated by their re-drawn borders after the wars of the 20th century, and wars going back a thousand years, the ones that you mention, but the fact is that you didn’t make this case in public until two years ago in February, and in the case that you made, which I read today, you explain a great length that you thought a physical threat from the West and NATO, including potentially a nuclear threat, and that’s what got you to move. Is that a fair characterization of what you said?
Vladimir Putin: I understand that my long speeches probably fall outside of the genre of an interview. That’s why I asked you at the beginning: will we have a serious conversation or a show? You said it was a serious conversation. So don't be offended by me, please.
We have come to the moment when Soviet Ukraine was created. Then there was 1991 - the collapse of the Soviet Union. And everything that Ukraine received as a gift from Russia, “from the master’s shoulder,” she took with her.
I'm coming to a very important point of today's agenda. After all, the collapse of the Soviet Union was effectively initiated by the Russian leadership. I do not understand what the Russian leadership was guided by at the time, but I suspect there were several reasons to think everything would be fine.
Firstly, I think that the Russian leadership proceeded from the fundamental principles of relations between Russia and Ukraine: a common language — more than 90 percent of the population there spoke Russian; family ties — every third person there had some kind of family or friendship ties; common culture; common history; finally, common faith; co-existence within a single state for centuries; and deeply interconnected economies. All of these were so fundamental. All these elements together make our good relations inevitable.
The second point is a very important one. I want you as an American citizen and your viewers to hear about this as well. The former Russian leadership assumed that the Soviet Union had ceased to exist and therefore there were no longer any ideological dividing lines. Russia even agreed, voluntarily and proactively, to the collapse of the Soviet Union and believed that this would be understood by the so-called in scare quotes ”civilized West“ as an invitation for cooperation and associateship. That is what Russia was expecting both from the United States and the so-called collective West as a whole.
There were smart people, including in Germany. Egon Bahr, a major politician of the Social Democratic Party, who insisted in his personal conversations with the Soviet leadership on the brink of the collapse of the Soviet Union that a new security system should be established in Europe. Help should be given to unify Germany, but a new system should also be established to include the United States, Canada, Russia, and other Central European countries. But NATO needs not to expand. That's what he said: if NATO expands, everything would be just the same as during the Cold War, only closer to Russia's borders. That's all. He was a wise old man, but no one listened to him. In fact, he got angry once - we have a record of this conversation in our archives: ”If, he said, you don't listen to me, I'm never setting my foot in Moscow once again.“ He was frustrated with the Soviet leadership. He was right, everything happened just as he had said.
Tucker Carlson: Well, of course, it did come true, and you’ve mentioned it many times. I think, it’s a fair point. And many in America thought that relations between Russia and United States would be fine after the collapse of the Soviet Union, at the core. But the opposite happened. But have never explained why you think that happened, except to say that the West fears a strong Russia. But we have a strong China that the West doesn’t seem to be very afraid of. What about Russia, what do you think convinced the policymakers to take it down?
Vladimir Putin: The West is afraid of a strong China more than it fears a strong Russia because Russia has 150 million people, and China has a 1.5 billion population, and its economy is growing by leaps and bounds — over five percent a year, it used to be even more. But that's enough for China. As Bismark once put it, potentials are most important. China's potential is enormous — it is the biggest economy in the world today in terms of purchasing power parity and the size of the economy. It has already overtaken the United States, quite a long time ago, and it is growing at a rapid clip.
Now we won’t say who is afraid of whom, let’s not talk in such categories. Let’s talk about the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected to be taken into the fraternal family of “civilized peoples,” nothing like that happened. You deceived us - when I say “you,” I don’t mean you personally, of course, but the United States - you promised that there would be no NATO expansion to the east, but this happened five times, five waves of expansion. We endured everything, persuaded everything, said: no need, we are now our own, as they say, bourgeois, we have a market economy, there is no power of the Communist Party, let's come to an agreement.
Moreover, I have also said this publicly before, let's look at Yeltsin's times now, there was a moment when a certain rift started growing between us. Before that, Yeltsin came to the United States, remember, he spoke in Congress and said the good words: ”God bless America“. Everything he said were signals — let us in.
Remember the developments in Yugoslavia, before that Yeltsin was lavished with praise, as soon as the developments in Yugoslavia started, he raised his voice in support of Serbs, and we couldn't but raise our voices for Serbs in their defense. I understand that there were complex processes underway there, I do. But Russia could not help raising its voice in support of Serbs, because Serbs are also a special and close to us nation, with Orthodox culture and so on. It's a nation that has suffered so much for generations. Well, regardless, what is important is that Yeltsin expressed his support. What did the United States do? In violation of international law and the UN Charter it started bombing Belgrade.
It was the United States that let the genie out of the bottle. Moreover, when Russia protested and expressed its resentment, what was said? The UN Charter and international law have become obsolete. Now everyone invokes international law, but at that time they started saying that everything was outdated, everything had to be changed.
Indeed, some things need to be changed as the balance of power has changed, it's true, but not in this manner. Yeltsin was immediately dragged through the mud, accused of alcoholism, of understanding nothing, of knowing nothing. He understood everything, I assure you.
Well, I became President in 2000. I thought: okay, the Yugoslav issue is over, but we should try to restore relations. Let's reopen the door that Russia had tried to go through. And moreover, I've said it publicly, I can reiterate. At a meeting here in the Kremlin with the outgoing President Bill Clinton, right here in the next room, I said to him, I asked him, ” Bill, do you think if Russia asked to join NATO, do you think it would happen?“ Suddenly he said: ”You know, it's interesting, I think so.“ But in the evening, when we had dinner, he said, ”You know, I've talked to my team, no-no, it's not possible now.“ You can ask him, I think he will watch our interview, he'll confirm it. I wouldn't have said anything like that if it hadn't happened. Okay, well, it's impossible now.
Tucker Carlson: Were you sincere? Would you have joined NATO?
Vladimir Putin: Look, I asked the question, ”Is it possible or not?“ And the answer I got was no. If I was insincere in my desire to find out what the leadership's position was…
Tucker Carlson: But if he would say yes, would you have joined NATO?
Vladimir Putin: If he had said yes, the process of rapprochement would have commenced, and eventually it might have happened if we had seen some sincere wish on the side of our partners. But it didn't happen. Well, no means no, okay, fine.
Tucker Carlson: Why do you think that is? Just to get to motive. I know, you’re clearly bitter about it. I understand. But why do you think the West rebuffed you then? Why the hostility? Why did the end of the Cold War not fix the relationship? What motivates this from your point of view?
Vladimir Putin: You said I was bitter about the answer. No, it's not bitterness, it's just a statement of fact. We're not the bride and groom, bitterness, resentment, it's not about those kinds of matters in such circumstances. We just realised we weren't welcome there, that's all. Okay, fine. But let's build relations in another manner, let's look for common ground elsewhere. Why we received such a negative response, you should ask your leader. I can only guess why: too big a country, with its own opinion and so on. And the United States – I have seen how issues are being resolved in NATO.
I will give you another example now, concerning Ukraine. The US leadership exerts pressure, and all NATO members obediently vote, even if they do not like something. Now, I'll tell you what happened in this regard with Ukraine in 2008, although it's being discussed, I’m not going to open a secret to you, say anything new. Nevertheless, after that, we tried to build relations in different ways. For example, the events in the Middle East, in Iraq, we were building relations with the United States in a very soft, prudent, cautious manner.
I repeatedly raised the issue that the United States should not support separatism or terrorism in the North Caucasus. But they continued to do it anyway. And political support, information support, financial support, even military support came from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus.
I once raised this issue with my colleague, also the President of the United States. He says, ”It’s impossible! Do you have proof?“ I said, ”Yes.“ I was prepared for this conversation and I gave him that proof. He looked at it and, you know what he said? I apologise, but that's what happened, I'll quote. He says, ”Well, I’m gonna kick their ass“. We waited and waited for some response – there was no reply.
I said to the FSB Director: ”Write to the CIA. What is the result of the conversation with the President?“ He wrote once, twice, and then we got a reply. We have the answer in the archive. The CIA replied: ”We have been working with the opposition in Russia. We believe that this is the right thing to do and we will keep on doing it.“ Just ridiculous. Well, okay. We realised that it was out of the question.
Tucker Carlson: Forces in opposition to you? Do you think the CIA is trying to overthrow your government?
Vladimir Putin: Of course, they meant in that particular case the separatists, the terrorists who fought with us in the Caucasus. That's who they called the opposition. This is the second point.
The third moment, a very important one, is the moment when the US missile defense ABM system was created. The beginning. We spent a long time trying to persuade the United States not to do this. Moreover, after I was invited by Bush Jr.'s father, Bush Sr. to visit his place on the ocean, I had a very serious conversation with President Bush and his team. I proposed that the United States, Russia and Europe jointly create a missile defense system that, we believe, if created unilaterally, threatens our security, despite the fact that the United States officially said that it was being created against missile threats from Iran. That was the justification for the deployment of the missile defense system. I suggested working together – Russia, the United States, and Europe. They said it was very interesting. They asked me, ”Are you serious?“ I said, “Absolutely”.
Tucker Carlson: May I ask what year was this?
Vladimir Putin: I don't remember. It is easy to find out on the Internet, when I was in the USA at the invitation of Bush Sr. It is even easier to learn from someone, I’m going to tell you about.
I was told it was very interesting. I said, ”Just imagine if we could tackle such a global, strategic security challenge together. The world would change. We'll probably have disputes, probably economic and even political ones, but we could drastically change the situation in the world.“ He says, ”Yes.“ And asks: ”Are you serious?“. I said, ”Of course.“ ”We need to think about it,“ I'm told. I said, ”Go ahead, please.“
Then Secretary of Defense Gates, former director of the CIA, and Secretary of State Rice came here to this office where we are now talking. Here, at this table, on the contrary, you see this table, they sat on this side. Me, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense of Russia are from the other side. They said to me, ”Yes, we have thought about it, we agree.“ I said, ”Thank God, great.“ – ”But with some exceptions.“
Tucker Carlson: So, twice you've described US presidents making decisions and then being undercut by their agency heads. So, it sounds like you're describing a system that is not run by the people who are elected, in your telling.
Vladimir Putin: That's right, that's right. In the end they just told us to get lost. I am not going to tell you the details, because I think it is incorrect, after all, it was a confidential conversation. But our proposal was declined, that’s a fact.
It was right then when I said: ”Look, but then we will be forced to take counter measures. We will create such strike systems that will certainly overcome missile defense systems.“ The answer was: ”We are not doing this against you, and you do what you want, assuming that it is not against us, not against the United States“. I said, ”Okay.“
Very well, that’s the way it went. And we created hypersonic systems, with intercontinental range, and we continue to develop them. We are now ahead of everyone – the United States and other countries – in terms of the development of hypersonic strike systems, and we are improving them every day.
But it wasn’t us, we proposed to go the other way, and we were pushed back.
Now, about NATO's expansion to the East. Well, we were promised, no NATO to the East, not an inch to the East, as we were told. And then what? They said, ”Well, it's not enshrined on paper, so we'll expand.“ So there were five waves of expansion, the Baltic States, the whole of Eastern Europe, and so on.
And now I come to the main thing: they have come to Ukraine ultimately. In 2008 at the summit in Bucharest they declared that the doors for Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO were open.
Now about how decisions are made there. Germany, France seemed to be against it as well as some other European countries. But then, as it turned out later, President Bush, and he is such a tough guy, a tough politician, as I was told later, ”He exerted pressure on us and we had to agree.“ It's ridiculous, it's like kindergarten. Where are the guarantees? What kindergarten is this, what kind of people are these, who are they? You see, they were pressed, they agreed. And then they say, ”Ukraine won't be in NATO, you know.“ I say, ”I don't know, I know you agreed in 2008, why won't you agree in the future?“ ”Well, they pressed us then.“ I say, ”Why won't they press you tomorrow? And you'll agree again.“
Well, it's nonsensical. Who's there to talk to, I just don't understand. We're ready to talk. But with whom? Where are the guarantees? None.
So, they started to develop the territory of Ukraine. Whatever is there, I have told you the background, how this territory developed, what kind of relations there were with Russia. Every second or third person there has always had some ties with Russia. And during the elections in already independent, sovereign Ukraine, which gained its independence as a result of the Declaration of Independence, and, by the way, it says that Ukraine is a neutral state, and in 2008 suddenly the doors or gates to NATO were open to it. Oh, come on! This is not how we agreed. Now, all the presidents that have come to power in Ukraine, they've relied on an electorate with a good attitude to Russia in one way or another. This is the south-east of Ukraine, this is a large number of people. And it was very difficult to desuade this electorate, which had a positive attitude towards Russia.
Viktor Yanukovych came to power, and how: the first time he won after President Kuchma – they organised a third round, which is not provided for in the Constitution of Ukraine. This is a coup d'état. Just imagine, someone in the United States wouldn’t like the outcome…
Tucker Carlson: In 2014?
Vladimir Putin: Before that. No, this was before that. After President Kuchma, Viktor Yanukovich won the elections. However, his opponents did not recognize that victory, the US supported the opposition and the third round was scheduled. What is this? This is a coup. The US supported it and the winner of the third round came to power. Imagine if in the US, something was not to someone’s liking and the third round of election, which the US Constitution does not provide for, was organized, Nonetheless, it was done in Ukraine. Okay, Viktor Yushchenko who was considered a pro-Western politician, came to power. Fine, we have built relations with him as well. He came to Moscow with visits, we visited Kiev. I visited it too. We met in an informal setting. If he is pro-Western, so be it. It’s fine, let people do their job. The situation should develop inside the independent Ukraine itself. As a result of Kuchma’s leadership, things got worse and Viktor Yanukovich came to power after all.
Maybe he wasn’t the best President and politician. I don’t know, I don’t want to give assessments. However, the issue of the association with the EU came up. We have always been lenient to this: suit yourself. But when we read through that treaty of association it turned out to be a problem for us, since we had a free-trade zone and open customs borders with Ukraine which, under this association, had to open its borders for Europe, which could have led to flooding of our market.
We said, “No, this is not going to work. We shall close our borders with Ukraine then”. The customs borders, that is. Yanukovich started to calculate how much Ukraine was going to gain, how much to lose and said to his European partners: “I need more time to think before signing”. The moment he said that, the opposition began to take destructive steps which were supported by the West. It all came down to Maidan and a coup in Ukraine.
Tucker Carlson: So, he did more trade with Russia than with the EU? Ukraine did…
Vladimir Putin: Of course. It’s not even the matter of trade volume, although for the most part it is. It is the matter of cooperation ties which the entire Ukrainian economy was based on. The cooperation ties between the enterprises were very close since the times of the Soviet Union. One enterprise there used to produce components to be assembled both in Russia and Ukraine and vice versa. There used to be very close ties.
A coup d’etat was committed, although, I shall not delve into details now as I find doing it inappropriate, the US told us, “Calm Yanukovich down and we will calm the opposition. Let the situation unfold in the scenario of a political settlement”. We said, “Alright. Agreed. Let’s do it this way”. As the Americans requested us, Yanukovich did use neither the Armed Forces, nor the police, yet the armed opposition committed a coup in Kiev. What is that supposed to mean? “Who do you think you are?”, I wanted to ask the then US leadership.
Tucker Carlson: With the backing of whom?
Vladimir Putin: With the backing of CIA, of course. The organization you wanted to join back in the day, as I understand. Maybe we should thank God they didn’t let you in. Although, it is a serious organization. I understand. My former vis-à-vis, in the sense that I served in the First Main Directorate – Soviet Union’s intelligence service. They have always been our opponents. A job is a job.
Technically they did everything right, they achieved their goal of changing the government. However, from political standpoint, it was a colossal mistake. Surely, it was political leadership’s miscalculation. They should have seen what it would evolve into.
So, in 2008 the doors of NATO were opened for Ukraine. In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea which we had to take under our protection. They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians. This is when it started. There is a video of aircraft attacking Donetsk from above. They launched a large-scale military operation, then another one. When they failed, they started to prepare the next one. All this against the background of military development of this territory and opening of NATO’s doors.
How could we not express concern over what was happening? From our side, this would have been a culpable negligence – that’s what it would have been. It’s just that the US political leadership pushed us to the line we could not cross because doing so could have ruined Russia itself. Besides, we could not leave our brothers in faith and, in fact, a part of Russian people, in the face of this “war machine”.
Tucker Carlson: So, that was eight years before the current conflict started. What was the trigger for you? What was the moment where you decided you had to do this?
Vladimir Putin: Initially, it was the coup in Ukraine that provoked the conflict.
By the way, back then the representatives of three European countries – Germany, Poland and France – arrived. They were the guarantors of the signed agreement between the Government of Yanukovich and the opposition. They signed it as guarantors. Despite that, the opposition committed a coup and all these countries pretended that they didn’t remember that they were guarantors of peaceful settlement. They just threw it in the stove right away and nobody recalls that.
I don’t know if the US know anything about that agreement between the opposition and the authorities and its three guarantors who, instead of bringing this whole situation back in the political field, supported the coup. Although, it was meaningless, believe me, because President Yanukovich agreed to all conditions, he was ready to hold early election which he had no chance to win, frankly speaking, Everyone knew that. Then why the coup, why the victims? Why threatening Crimea? Why launching an operation in Donbass? This I do not understand. That is exactly what the miscalculation is. CIA did its job to complete the coup. I think one of the Deputy Secretaries of State said that it cost a large sum of money, almost 5 billion. But the political mistake was colossal! Why would they have to do that? All this could have been done legally, without victims, without military action, without losing Crimea. We would have never considered to even lift a finger, if it hadn’t been for the bloody developments on Maidan.
Because we agreed with the fact that after the collapse of the Soviet Union our borders should be along the borders of former Union’s republics. We agreed to that. But we never agreed to NATO’s expansion and moreover we never agreed that Ukraine would be in NATO. We did not agree to NATO bases there without any discussion with us. For decades we kept asking: don’t do this, don’t do that.
And what triggered the latest events? Firstly, the current Ukrainian leadership declared that it would not implement the Minsk Agreements, which had been signed, as you know, after the events of 2014, in Minsk, where the plan of peaceful settlement in Donbass was set forth. But no, the current Ukrainian leadership, Foreign Minister, all other officials and then President himself said that they don’t like anything about the Minsk Agreements. In other words, they were not going to implement it. A year or a year and a half ago, former leaders of Germany and France said openly to the whole world that they indeed signed the Minsk Agreements but they never intended to implement them. They simply led us by the nose.
Tucker Carlson: Was there anyone free to talk to? Did you call the US President, Secretary of State and say if you keep militarizing Ukraine with NATO forces, we are going to act?
Vladimir Putin: We talked about this all the time. We addressed the United States’ and European countries’ leadership to stop these developments immediately, to implement the Minsk Agreements. Frankly speaking, I didn’t know how we were going to do this but I was ready to implement them. These Agreements were complicated for Ukraine; they included lots of elements of those Donbass territories’ independence. That’s true. However, I was absolutely confident, and I am saying this to you now: I honestly believed that if we managed to convince the residents of Donbass – and we had to work hard to convince them to return to the Ukrainian statehood – then gradually the wounds would start to heal. When this part of territory reintegrated itself into common social environment, when the pensions and social benefits were paid again, all the pieces would gradually fall into place.
No, nobody wanted that, everybody wanted to resolve the issue by military force only. But we could not let that happen. And the situation got to the point, when the Ukrainian side announced: ”No, we will not do anything“. They also started preparing for military action. It was they who started the war in 2014. Our goal is to stop this war. And we did not start this war in 2022. This is an attempt to stop it.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think you have stopped it now? I mean have you achieved your aims?
Vladimir Putin: No, we haven't achieved our aims yet, because one of them is denazification. This means the prohibition of all kinds of neo-Nazi movements. This is one of the problems that we discussed during the negotiation process, which ended in Istanbul early last year, and it was not our initiative, because we were told, by the Europeans, in particular, that ”it was necessary to create conditions for the final signing of the documents“. My counterparts in France and Germany said, ”How can you imagine them signing a treaty with a gun to their heads? The troops should be pulled back from Kiev. ‘I said, ‘All right.’ We withdrew the troops from Kiev.
As soon as we pulled back our troops from Kiev, our Ukrainian negotiators immediately threw all our agreements reached in Istanbul into the bin and got prepared for a longstanding armed confrontation with the help of the United States and its satellites in Europe. That is how the situation has developed. And that is how it looks now.
Tucker Carlson: What is denazification? What would that mean?
Vladimir Putin: That is what I want to talk about right now. It is a very important issue.
Denazification. After gaining independence, Ukraine began to search, as some Western analysts say, its identity. And it came up with nothing better than to build this identity upon some false heroes who collaborated with Hitler.
I have already said that in the early 19th century, when the theorists of independence and sovereignty of Ukraine appeared, they assumed that an independent Ukraine should have very good relations with Russia. But due to the historical development, these territories were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth – Poland, where Ukrainians were persecuted and treated quite brutally as well as were subject to cruel behavior. There were also attempts to destroy their identity. All this remained in the memory of the people. When World War II broke out, part of this extremely nationalist elite collaborated with Hitler, believing that he would bring them freedom. The German troops, even the SS troops made Hitler's collaborators do the dirtiest work of exterminating the Polish and Jewish population. Hence this brutal massacre of the Polish and Jewish population as well as the Russian population too. This was led by the persons who are well known – Bandera, Shukhevich. It was these people who were made national heroes – that is the problem. And we are constantly told that nationalism and neo-Nazism exist in other countries as well. Yes, there are seedlings, but we uproot them, and other countries fight against them. But Ukraine is not the case. These people have been made into national heroes in Ukraine. Monuments to these people have been erected, they are displayed on flags, their names are shouted by crowds that walk with torches, as it was in Nazi Germany. These were the people who exterminated Poles, Jews and Russians. It is necessary to stop this practice and prevent the dissemination of this concept.
I say that Ukrainians are part of the one Russian people. They say, ”No, we are a separate people.“ Okay, fine. If they consider themselves a separate people, they have the right to do so, but not on the basis of Nazism, the Nazi ideology.
Tucker Carlson: Would you be satisfied with the territory that you have now?
Vladimir Putin: I will finish answering the question. You just asked a question about neo-Nazism and denazification.
Look, the President of Ukraine visited Canada. This story is well known, but is silenced in the Western countries: The Canadian parliament introduced a man who, as the speaker of the parliament said, fought against the Russians during the World War II. Well, who fought against the Russians during World War II? Hitler and his accomplices. It turned out that this man served in the SS troops. He personally killed Russians, Poles, and Jews. The SS troops consisted of Ukrainian nationalists who did this dirty work. The President of Ukraine stood up with the entire Parliament of Canada and applauded this man. How can this be imagined? The President of Ukraine himself, by the way, is a Jew by nationality.
Tucker Carlson: Really, my question is: What do you do about it? I mean, Hitler has been dead for eighty years, Nazi Germany no longer exists, and it’s true. So, I think, what you are saying, you want to extinguish or at least control Ukrainian nationalism. But how do you do that?
Vladimir Putin: Listen to me. Your question is very subtle.
And can I tell you what I think? Do not take offense.
Tucker Carlson: Of course!
Vladimir Putin: This question appears to be subtle, it is quite pesky.
You say Hitler has been dead for so many years, 80 years. But his example lives on. People who exterminated Jews, Russians and Poles are alive. And the president, the current president of today's Ukraine applauds him in the Canadian Parliament, gives a standing ovation! Can we say that we have completely uprooted this ideology if what we see is happening today? That is what denazification is in our understanding. We have to get rid of those people who maintain this concept and support this practice and try to preserve it – that is what denazification is. That is what we mean.
Tucker Carlson: Right. My question is almost specific, it was, of course, not a defense of Nazism. Otherwise, it was a practical question. You don't control the entire country, you don’t seem like you want to. So, how do you eliminate that culture, or an ideology, or feelings, or a view of history, in a country that you don’t control? What do you do about that?
Vladimir Putin: You know, as strange as it may seem to you, during the negotiations in Istanbul we did agree that – we have it all in writing – neo-Nazism would not be cultivated in Ukraine, including that it would be prohibited at the legislative level.
Mr. Carlson, we agreed on that. This, it turns out, can be done during the negotiation process. And there is nothing humiliating for Ukraine as a modern civilized State. Is any state allowed to promote Nazism? It is not, is it? That is it.